Dr. Blip's PC-Doctor Forum
General Category => Building or Upgrading PCs => Topic started by: Zhiro on July 27, 2007, 02:04:32 pm
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Remember VHS and BETA? Both were released nearly at the same time. BETA was smaller than VHS and actually provided better video quality. But then why did VHS become the standard? ???
Which do you think will become the next standard? Blu-ray or HD DVD?
Blu-ray is thought to be a Sony product (it was actually created in conjunction with several companies) and HD DVD is a Toshiba Product.
Both utilize blue laser technology, but Blu-ray has the edge on data storage.
Read this article and give your opinion. Or don't read the article, but be sure to give us your opinion. ;D
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/415/2
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Well, I'm leaning towards HD-DVD. Mainly because I own an XBOX 360 and can now purchase the add-on for only $179, woot woot! ;)
But, I also feel that the PS3 could spell the destruction of Blu-Ray. Plus, for the average user it's often times about naming. I asked my parents about this. They knew right away what HD-DVD was, but had no clue what this so-called Blu-Ray was all about.
Sure, gamers and hard core electronics freaks might know what it is, but the average consumer may not.
Oh by the way, 300 on DVD (http://www.300ondvd.com/) releases tomorrow, Aug. 1, available in both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. :P
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Aha! Naming, marketing, presentation, yes, it is true makes a huge impact.
I fall on the opposite side of the PS3 and Blu-ray. I think PS3 is the savior of it. A normal player will cost nearly that much, and a burner, is around 700+
I think the "HD" in HD-DVD is actually gonna be the downfall of it. Because I know many people who end up buying an HD-DVD thinking it will play on their normal DVD players (why not think that when you have the top of the line 1080i upconverting model) only to find out that they have to buy a separate HD-DVD player. Also, I have run into instances when the opposite happens. A customer buys the newest Desktop with HD-DVD player, and he gets frustrated, because it won't play. Did you know, that currently, in order to play that HD-DVD disc on your computer, you must have an HD-DVD optical drive AND use the program that will decode the HD-DVD? Many people are buying high end computers and think that the windows media player will play that HD-DVD disc. This is not the case, instead, they have to use the Media Center or the Application that came with the HD-DVD Drive. Many people I have come across, hate the fact that HD-DVD makes them feel really "not so smart".
I feel that the winner is gonna be the one that is supported by the video rental companies.
Also, I feel Blu-ray has the edge, because it actually does hold more data, and is viewed upon as "High-End". In this day and age, Name Brand is everything, and Sony vs. Toshiba are the names here, backed by two game systems in respective order, PS3 vs. Xbox 360. Xbox 360 currently has the edge in sales and games, but PS3 or Play Station, has always had a faithful following. Only time will tell...
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I have to disagree on a few points.
First, I really can't see how having "HD" in the name can be a downfall. I know a lot of people buy any HD DVD (generic) and think it will play on their normal DVD player. This is a problem with the average person's education about HD technology in general, and not specific to HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.
Second, while some may buy computer systems with the thought, "hey, this will play my HD DVDs", this is a small minority of people. My parents would never go purchase a computer for the sake of specifically playing an HD DVD, nor would the thought even cross their mind. They would look for an actual DVD player to do that. Regardless, this again is not specific to HD DVD, is it? Don't the same problems exists for Blu-Ray when playing on PCs? That's not a rhetorical question. ;)
I'm confused how the name of a product would make some feel really "not so smart". That seems pretty silly to me. It makes perfect sense to call it what it is, an HD DVD. Who could argue with that? ???
I am in complete agreement with you that the video rental companies hold a lot of weight in this battle. And you are right, only time will tell...
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Okay, not to imply anything derogatory, but why would your parents buy a DVD player to play an HD-DVD? ???
First, I really can't see how having "HD" in the name can be a downfall. I know a lot of people buy any HD DVD (generic) and think it will play on their normal DVD player. This is a problem with the average person's education about HD technology in general, and not specific to HD-DVD or Blu-Ray.
Second, while some may buy computer systems with the thought, "hey, this will play my HD DVDs", this is a small minority of people. My parents would never go purchase a computer for the sake of specifically playing an HD DVD, nor would the thought even cross their mind. They would look for an actual DVD player to do that. Regardless, this again is not specific to HD DVD, is it? Don't the same problems exists for Blu-Ray when playing on PCs? That's not a rhetorical question. ;)
I'm confused how the name of a product would make some feel really "not so smart". That seems pretty silly to me. It makes perfect sense to call it what it is, an HD DVD. Who could argue with that? ???
I am in complete agreement with you that the video rental companies hold a lot of weight in this battle. And you are right, only time will tell...
Please don't change or correct your post, because it will remove the very point I am trying to make earlier and now. Just as you have forgotten to put the "HD" in front of the DVD, many people, ASSUME that an HD-DVD player will play in a regular DVD player. That is why they end up feeling "not so smart". Because they end up buying an HD-DVD, putting it in their regular DVD player/drive, and it doesn't work. Then they go to the store where they bought the HD-DVD and fight with Customer Service about the broken HD-DVD that they bought and returned for the 3rd time, until someone who actually knows the difference explains it to them, that an HD-DVD needs its very own HD-DVD player.
In regards to purchasing a computer to play an HD-DVD:
Perhaps your parents wouldn't buy a computer just to play an HD-DVD, but many consumers will purchase a computer based on the fact that it has that ability. And, in my experience, the consumer buys the brand new Desktop or Laptop, and cannot play his HD-DVD, which the unit is capable of , and usually comes with a free HD-DVD movie. Then the customer comes in angry cause he just spent over 1000 and can't play his HD-DVD. Then, he brings it in for a replacement, and then after the third time replacing it, someone realizes what is happening,and explains it to the customer, that eventhough they have the correct Hardware, having an HD-DVD Drive in the computer, you also have to use the correct Software, the application that will play the HD-DVD, because the COMMONLY used software players like Windows Media Player and Power DVD and WinDVD do not support it (well they may now, not sure).
In regards to the Blu-ray not working:
It is much easier to realize and explain, that a Blu-ray will not work in a DVD player, because it is called a Blu-ray. You can even explain to a consumer that a Blu-ray is called a Blu-ray because it uses a Blue laser. Try explaining the same thing to a consumer about HD-DVD which also uses a Blue laser, and they will still be confused. Why not be confuse? Its a DVD right? So what if it is an HD-DVD, my DVD player can play 720p and even upconvert to 1080i and thats High Def! RIGHT???
And the reason I point out that "HD" may be the downfall of HD-DVDs, is because of the negative conotation it may receive from all those people who felt "not so smart" during their HD-DVD fiascos.
The reason people feel "not so smart" is because,
as human beings, we all tend to make assumptions.
(And I hope no one finds this derogatory, but I am quoting this from a movie)
"When we ASSUME, that makes an ... "
Well, I won't finish the quote, but instead, I will ASSUME that u can figure it out! :P
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Interesting arguements... ;)
My guess is that HD-DVD will come out on top. Why?
Well, HD-DVD is:
* Backed by both Microsoft & Intel, big players right?
* Supports "Managed Copy" for making backups of optical content
This is mandatory on HD-DVD, but optional on Blu-ray
* Hybrid Mode - good for consumers and disc manufactures
Disc manufacturers can switch production to HD-DVD at a minimal cost, as compared to a whole new process for Blu-ray
* HD-DVD players are region free
* Major North American movie studio backing
* Backing by major pr0n publishers (which was a major factor in the VHS vs Betamax format war)
* Its winning the sales race in Europe
* HD-DVD players average about $100 cheaper than Blu-ray players
In any case, as with DVD vs. DIVX, I will wait until one emerges before I gamble and potentially get stuck with a collection of $20-$30 coasters.
Oh, and besides us geeks, who really cares what color the laser is? :P
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I agree with all points made by colinc, very well said.
I did not forget to put the HD in front DVD, I chose not to. I was simply stating that they'd be more apt to make that mistake than the mistake about purchasing a computer to play a HD-DVD. You may be right that people will mistakenly buy a HD-DVD and complain about it. But, that proves one point, people are buying the HD-DVDs because of the name. This is also one of the reasons why it's winning the sales race, name recognition.
I think of this as an upsell opportunity. The latest craze right now in electronics is HD. HD programming subscriptions have skyrocketed in the last year. People make a correlation between the two, HD TV and HD-DVD, I gotta have it.
Your second and third points are subjective at best. I simply don't agree that those scenarios are a large enough problem to be the demise of HD-DVD. The same problem exists with both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.
colinc probably made one of the most important points earlier
* Backing by major pr0n publishers (which was a major factor in the VHS vs Betamax format war)
'nuff said. ;)
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The reference I am making to "HD" being the downfall or HD-DVD can be compared to Classical Conditioning by Ivan Pavlov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning). Because the negative experience can be associated to HD for those who have experienced what I have stated above.
Colinc has many valid points, but I will just play devils advocate to a few.
* Supports "Managed Copy" for making backups of optical content
This is mandatory on HD-DVD, but optional on Blu-ray
Can anyone say "Freedom of choice"? Having an option is much more powerful than making it a standard. Imagine if it were mandatory for all players to be Region free. What would the Hackers do? and if all players were Region free, then would there even be a "Region" ... hmmm ???
* HD-DVD players are region free
This may be true, and is a big plus to enthusiasts, but the average American consumer will not care about Region Free, because the average American Consumer is Honest (hehe) and will only buy "American" not imported stuff that is Region 2 SHEESH!
* Major North American movie studio backing
Umm SONY? Maker of many films as well as Gaming Platforms and Games.
* Its winning the sales race in Europe
Americans are well known for doing what they want to do, rather than following the "Europeans" (i.e. Metric System vs. American Standard)
* HD-DVD players average about $100 cheaper than Blu-ray players
Price does make a difference, but $100 dollars today is like what $25 dollars was worth in the 80's. It's not that big of a difference.
:) Enough devil's advocate, cause I think this is undoubtedly the deciding factor. which means colinc wins the argument hands down.
* Backing by major pr0n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr0n#Pr0n) publishers (which was a major factor in the VHS vs Betamax format war)
Okay pr0n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr0n#Pr0n) is the deciding factor!
But it still coincides with my idea of Classical Conditioning by Ivan Pavlov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning). Because the "eXXX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr0n#Pr0n)perience" can be associated to HD for those who have eXXX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr0n#Pr0n)perienced what pr0n (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pr0n#Pr0n) has to offer! :o
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Nothing like a little Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD to fire up a good ole fashion flame war. >:(
And the winner, fighting out of the pr0n corner: HD-DVD! Yea! Yea! :P
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I concur...
Flame wars rule!
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Hey wait! We are not done here... yet! ;)
Can anyone say "Freedom of choice"? Having an option is much more powerful than making it a standard. Imagine if it were mandatory for all players to be Region free. What would the Hackers do? and if all players were Region free, then would there even be a "Region" ... hmmm ???
I agree with the concept of "Freedom of choice. But, "Freedom of choice" to make a legal backup copy of something that you purchased? I choose the format that mandates that I can legally make a backup of my purchased media. Do you really want your freedoms taken away by the same companies that provide you with your music and movies?
Umm SONY? Maker of many films as well as Gaming Platforms and Games.
Son is obviously a big player... In terms of major studios in North America, HD DVD is currently backed by:
Universal Studios & subsidiaries
The Weinstein Company/Dimension Films
First Look Studios
Paramount Pictures
DreamWorks
Warner Bros. Pictures
Warner Music Group
New Line Cinema
HBO
Studio Canal
Image Entertainment
Discovery Channel
Magnolia Pictures
Brentwood Home Video
Ryko
Koch/Goldhil Entertainment
And...
HD DVD has more studio support than Blu-ray, worldwide, especially in Europe. Not that you seem to think that Europe has any influence on the rest of the world! ;D
OK, now I am done... :)
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It's all your fault colinc! I...can't....resist, I..must....respond.
Here's a few other interesting facts:
- Even though Apple sits on the Blu-ray Board of Directors, its DVD Studio Pro software supports authoring HD DVD media.
- The Nichi Corporation, who holds the design patents to the Blu-ray's laser system, sits as an associate member of the HD DVD Promotion Group
- The Java platform is mandatory on Blu-ray as it's the standard for menus/multimedia (i.e. all Blu-ray systems must support JVM)
- The reason Intel and Microsoft sided with HD DVD? They said the 50GB version of Blu-ray was "nowhere in sight," giving the 30GB HD DVD the capacity advantage for the time being.
- HD DVD manufacturing is easier than for Blu-ray's BD-ROM, and its "hybrid disk" feature will mean an owner of today's DVD player will be able to buy a dual-format disk that can be played in tomorrow's HD DVD player. 300 the movie has this option if I'm not mistaken.
- HD DVD has announced a US marketing spend of $150M
Just a bit of food for thought.
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Well, at least our flame wars have substance!
Its obvious u guys did your homework on HD-DVD and Blu-ray.
hmmm ... Or is it you both hold a large portion of stock in HD-DVD technology
???... hmmm
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Its obvious u guys did your homework on HD-DVD and Blu-ray.
hmmm ... Or is it you both hold a large portion of stock in HD-DVD technology
Maybe it's both. ;)
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Nice! (lol)
There I go ASSUMING again... ;)
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Well I'm rooting for the Underdog ==> Blu-ray!
I have a PS3 so it's Blu-ray for me!
Besides, everyone loves the underdog!
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Since we're all full of assumptions today, I'm going to continue with the assumption that you're wrong. :P
Welcome to the flame war Juan. ;D
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* Backing by major pr0n publishers (which was a major factor in the VHS vs Betamax format war)
Actually the pr0n publishers are using Bluray as well. HD DVD may have the lead in the US but blu-ray seems to be the format of choice in Japan. Sony has a public anti-pr0n attitude, but is not trying to prevent blu-ray's adoption by the industry.
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/33134/118/
However, Sony has said that it will provide technical support to anyone that has the equipment which is similar to saying, “the cat is out of the bag, so we might as well help you now”.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,135222-pg,1/article.html
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My predictions are coming true! :P
Paramount Pictures & DreamWorks Animation announced that they're ditching Blu-Ray and will be using HD-DVD exclusively. I think it's coming down to price. Toshiba's slashing the price of it's HD-DVD players which is making it more appealing to "families".
Read the full article here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293832,00.html).
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I think your assuming again.
You can definitely say that you have one more weapon to add to your arsenal, but from the article you linked, there are some great Blu-ray points of interest as well.
Standalone HD DVD players have a bigger slice of the market than Blu-ray players. But when you count Sony's PlayStation 3 game console, which comes with a Blu-ray drive, there are more Blu-ray players in U.S. homes.
The Blu-ray format recently got a big boost as Blockbuster Inc. (BBI) announced it would stock only Blu-ray titles when it expands its high-def DVD offerings this year.
Target Inc. (TGT), the nation's second-largest retailer, said it will only sell Blu-ray DVD players in its stores in the fourth quarter.
Sony Corp.'s Sony Pictures, News Corp.'s (NWS) Twentieth Century Fox, The Walt Disney Co. (DIS), and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer are releasing only in Blu-ray.[\quote]
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I agree those are good points. However, the headline is the news because this is the first time someone has switched from a previous exclusive stance (e.g., they were exclusive to one, now they are switching to the other). This has yet to happen for Blu-Ray -- to my knowledge.
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Is this a joke?!
HD VMD to Battle Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136977-c,hometheatersystems/article.html)
Just what we need, a new format to throw into the mix. What does everyone think about this? The price is obviously appealing, but does it matter since there are only 20 titles available? They look nice too, but is that enough? I'm guessing they're going to sink fast but who knows.
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Oh, but it gets worse:
China announces CH-DVD, a new high definition DVD standard
http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/09/china-announces-ch-dvd-a-new-high-definition-dvd-standard/ (http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/09/china-announces-ch-dvd-a-new-high-definition-dvd-standard/)
If nothing else, I hope these late entries help to drive prices down.
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This is just absurd. With any luck, HD DVD will come out the winner after this holiday season, before CH DVD even launches. If you ask me, HD DVD has already won, we just don't know it yet. By the way, Transformers is launching soon on HD DVD -- I'm sooooo excited! :P
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I still say HD DVD is going to win and it looks like there's trouble on the horizon for Blu-ray. Or, is the trouble already here. ???
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/format-war/the-state-of-blu+ray-320077.php
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Hmmm... Warner Bros. just ditched HD-DVD for Blu-ray... :o
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/gadgets/?p=266 (http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/gadgets/?p=266)
Toshiba maintains composure... :-X
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/gadgets/?p=270 (http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/gadgets/?p=270)
I wish we could just get this over with. I have a big 1080P LCD that is begging for a Hi-Def source! >:(
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If you guys want it to be over just let me know and I will run out and buy player of one or the other format. Whichever one I choose will NOT become the standard.
This is so much like the VHS - Beta wars I get a strange feeling of Déjà vu which, come to think of it, was just released on Blue Ray.
Back then Beta Max appeared to be the clear winner so I purchased one. I found out 6 months later that I put my money on the wrong horse. The “Sony Pony” lost the race and VHS won out. VHS wasn’t technically superior; in fact Beta had better resolution and Beta was favored by all the “people in the know”.
Am I willing to lay my money down again some 3 decades later? I think not. The plain truth is DVDs are pretty darn good as they are, even on my 54” plasma. This may be due to my failing eyesight but there has to be some perks to getting old. Until I can only get new releases on the winning format, I’ll keep my money in my pocket. ;)
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Well, it looks like HD-DVD is in for a tough race:
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/gadgets/?p=329
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Format wars 2008 - Winner is Blu-ray
February 19, 2008 – 8:45 am
“Toshiba Corporation today announced that it has undertaken a thorough review of its overall strategy for HD DVD and has decided it will no longer develop, manufacture and market HD DVD players and recorders. This decision has been made following recent major changes in the market. Toshiba will continue, however, to provide full product support and after-sales service for all owners of Toshiba HD DVD products.”
Looks like the fat lady has finally sung. It's Blu-ray all the way. Now I figure it will only take 12 months for Blue-ray players and recordable media to come down from the stratosphere. ;)
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Yep, now it's time to significantly increase my HD-DVD collection, as I'm sure the prices are gonna be great!
Blu-ray better come down in price, otherwise, this time next year we might be writing the same about them. ;)
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Soooo ...
You guessed it!
I have to say it!
I TOLD YOU SO!
HAHAHHAAAAAAAAAA! :D :P :o ;D ;) :)
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Will Blu-ray die at Christmas 2008? | Sir Arthur's Den
http://kingofgng.com/eng/2008/11/16/will-blu-ray-die-at-christmas-2008/ (http://kingofgng.com/eng/2008/11/16/will-blu-ray-die-at-christmas-2008/)
He who laughs last laughs hardest ;)
-Fred
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I think Blu-ray.. ???
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Well Blue-ray certainly is the only option now so it has "won" the battle but I think it may have lost the war.
With 11% of the market share after a year of being the sole HD player, Blue-ray is not exactly taking the world by storm. Digital delivery by comparison is growing at a much faster rate.
-Fred